Harassed by DHS for spotting near TPA today

FloridaMetal

This morning I was spotting at Cypress Point Park as I have spotted there for nearly 3 years without any issues other than a Rent a Cop and a park maintenance guy asking me questions about what I was doing.

I was sitting amongst the palm trees and the open field east of the approach so I could get good light in the morning (despite there being a little bit of cloud cover at first). I saw a couple guys walking towards me that looked like a couple regular people. I figured they were coming to talk to me but I left my MP3 player and headphones on. They walked up to me so I took my headphones off. I thought at first they were a couple of "Captain Americas" or "freedom isn't free" types

One guy was wearing a black West Coast Choppers shirt and jeans and had a mullet and scruffy beard, the other guy was wearing a T shirt and jeans. The guy with the mullet pulls out an ID from his pocket and shows that it is from Department of Homeland Security. I saw Dept of Homeland Security on the ID, but I didn't see what else it said. By the way they were dressed they could have just been toilet cleaners at the DHS office there - no idea who they were.

They started getting really nosy, the guy with the mullet had a note pad and started writing stuff down

DHS: What are you taking pictures of?

Me: planes

DHS: Why?

Me: Its a hobby of mine

DHS: What do you do with the pictures?

Me. post them on websites

DHS: Your own?

Me: No, places like airport-data.com, myavation.net

DHS: Got an ID

I give him my ID

DHS: What is your date of birth?

Me: 1-5-75

DHS: You live in Orlando?

Me: Yes

DHS: You have been watching the news lately right?

Me: Yeah

DHS: You understand why we are talking to you right?

Me: No, I don't see how me taking pictures on the ground has anything to do with a guy lighting his pants on fire on a plane.

DHS: Well we are concerned about the pictures.

Me: I don't understand what that has to do with security.

DHS: You could be studying aircraft traffic patterns.

Me: I could find out all that online from my house. Also I work at Orlando Airport and have ramp access and customs access so I think I am safe.

DHS: Do you have your airport ID?

Me: Its in my car.

DHS: Where's your car?

Me: Parked in the lot over there.

(they never asked me to get the badge and in the meantime I am still snapping pictures of approaching aircraft)

DHS: If you live in Orlando, why are you out here?

Me: My girlfriend lives in Clearwater, and she is at work, it is my day off and I am hanging out here till she gets off work.

DHS: What is your girlfriend's name?

(now at this point I am getting pissed off and I am not going to get my girlfriend involved in this as this is irrelevent and only is between me and DHS - so I gave them a fake name - I figure I can lie since I am not under oath at this point.)

DHS: What is your girlfriend's date of birth?

Me: Sept 25, 1971

DHS: What is your girlfriend's address?

Me (lying again): I don't know the number, she lives in an Apartment in Dunedin.

DHS: How long have you been with her?

Me: 7 months

DHS: Where does she work?

Me: Sun Trust

DHS: Which one? In Dunedin (really she works in Clearwater)

DHS: (ask again) Are you familiar what has been happening in the news?

Me: (really annoyed but stayed calm, but got smart ass a bit) Yes, Someone in the Department of Homeland Security didn't put a suspected terrorist on a no fly list and we almost had 300 dead in Detroit if it wasn't for a heroic Dutch guy that stopped him.

Some how instead of pissing them off, they said "have a nice day" and left. Now these guys never told me I couldn't spot there and they were never rude. However they were a way too nosey. I can understand asking what I do, but asking about my girlfriend was none of their business and they don't need to be calling her and putting her under more stress as she has been stressed out lately.

Since the guys walked off without anything else. I got suspicious I might see cops or more official looking DHS agents coming so I felt it best to leave right then and there and went to get a bite to eat. After I left I thought that it made me look guilty that I left right after then. After I ate, I went back to the park and no one bothered me the rest of the day out there.

THoff

Just wait until DHS asks your real girlfriend about the made-up one. :

Ztex

First off I wonder who these guys actually were?

Sounds very suspicious to me...very unorthodox.

Did they both show you ID?

I cannot believe they were not in uniform of some sort....Plain clothes "undercover" officers NEVER reveal who they are...if they were who they say were they would have been more likely to spot you and call in a uniformed officer to question you. Why blow their cover? Hmmm...

Then I hesitate to show my ID and answer these types of personal questions of anyone that I am unsure of.

I have been in your situation around airports but it has always been a uniformed person I have shown ID to...

It is scary that they asked about your girlfriend and all...

Very disturbing trend...it's not like plane spotters are a new thing...

hmmm...

Let us know if you hear from "them"

davidhcrocker

Could it have been they were freaked out by the would-be Nigerian bomber on that Delta flight to Detroit? The authorities always overreact when something like this happens, like telling people they can't use the lavatory during the last hour of a flight, etc.

Ken Wang

I was on a connection flight from Toronto to Detroit on Dec 31, which last only 45 minutes. No one was allowed to stand up during the whole flight. And everybody need to go through an extensive search after regular security check.

Though the flight from Detroit to Shanghai is quite normal, except TSA officers randomly check a few passengers before boarding.

DarrylRoach

I cannot believe they were not in uniform of some sort....Plain clothes "undercover" officers NEVER reveal who they are...if they were who they say were they would have been more likely to spot you and call in a uniformed officer to question you. Why blow their cover? Hmmm...

Bingo. I'd be willing to bet these guys weren't the real deal because of this right here. No law enforcement agency who does undercover work would ever blow their cover unless both A. They find their target and are prepared to take him into custody, and B. They never intend to return to that location again because they risk having been seen approaching a false target (you) by the real target.

The way they acted during and after the questioning suggests they were going to go right back to wherever it was they were hiding and keep watching that spot. A real LE (I hope) would know better. Those guys could have been dangerous, or maybe they were just looking for information. Either way, there's a good chance they weren't real.

On the other hand, maybe you were their target and they were waiting for you, and it turns out you're just a spotter and not a threat. That's some bad LE work though if it's true.

avman

According to supervisory personnel in TSA - It is not illegal to photograph aircraft. PERIOD! You could run into to problems if you are located on private property without permission or on public property and are in a hazardous position ( ie a public roadway). As much as LE wants to restrict photography, no such restriction exists, particularly if you are in a public area and pose no safety hazard to either yourself or anyone else for that matter. This is an intimidation tactic! LE wants to discourage the use of your rights. Don't let them

Mikestanners

i had to laugh at your fake girlfreind 's date of birth, because it IS my Date Of birth lol!

mike

globemaster3

you did the right thing, standing your ground was absolutely the right thing to do. as others have said, if you are not tresspassing or hindering traffic etc. you have EVERY right to take pictures of aircraft. when I first started spotting on a regular basis in colorado springs, the police were saying that i was tresspassing, it was not posted(WELL) in the spots i was at, they would then ask for ID, looking for wants and warrants, when they found none, they went about their day, and i stayed where i was to watch planes on the ramp. so dont feel guilty, i did for a while too, I am now over my guilt, when i shouldnt have felt that way at all.

Bluedharma

I think Ztex has a very good point.

They may ask what you are doing, but I wonder who they are?

Strange that they would do thatâ€¦

Get to know the airport authority in the area you are taking pictures of.

Someone starts to ask me questions... then I may call airport security if I don't know who they are.

Not out of spite, but they "could" be shady as well. If they are the bad guys, they will not want you there with a camera.

I would contact the airport authority and let them know that 2 guys are out asking "questions".

If they tell you it is Department of Homeland Security, then no problem. You are helping the â€œcommunity watchâ€ group.

If you are a friend of the airport you become a 2nd set of eyes for them. That is to their advantage.

We do have a right to photograph, but you should let the airport authority know what you are doing.

Since I have went out of my way to meet the airport security in my area, I have not been once stopped or hassled in any way.

Make sure you get a business card from airport security and tell them you will send them copies of the cool pictures you get.

Then when the concerned citizens stop you, you can have them call the number on the card.

I work with them, and they will work with me. And that makes everything easier for everyone.

globemaster3

i have a friend who lives out northeast of denver, near DIA. i was on my way home one day and went by the airport one day to take pictures of aircraft landing. I did call the airport police and told them where i was located, and the only rule they gave me was the 6 or 7 foot rule. i told them i would comply with that rule, and the gentleman on the phone told me to have a great time and be safe. so I thought that was pretty cool. so informing them where you are and what you are doing alleviates suspicion. and answering questions no matter how nosy, and stupid they might be, will make law enforcement personnel feel better too.

artracer

I was there this afternoon from 5.30 pm until the FedEx DC 10 landed at 6.30. Then I drove to the Hoover Rd end of the airport and caught the BA 777 going off to Gatwick. No probs at the park. I was there with my 500 and monopod. One of Tampa's finest cruised by in his Crown Vic, and waved a merry hello. A few people there enjoying the glorious weather. A good spot, since the TIA people wont let me shoot from the parking garage any more.(DHS)

The park is better anyway. In the old days, you could get nearer the end of the runway. I shot the BA Concorde when it came to TIA back in 1985. Now THAT was a day. The goons you met were just wanna be's. They may or may not have been DHS people. Judging by their questions, I'd say they were Clearwater latrine sanitizers. Lets face it, if someone of middle eastern origin wanted to do some damage with a SAM 6, that park would be an easy set up. Of course, they may be spotted by those two DHS goons, who would not know what the hell a SAM 6 is. "Did you get that at Sam's Club then?" or something like it.....

Are'nt we happy to know that our lives are in such capable hands !!

RonStreetenberger

I had an experience at DFW that was like an anti-hassle. I was photographing on a new road that gave close access to the approach path to 13L at DFW, the fence being about 40 feet from the inner marker. A dude with a DFW badge drove up and asked what I was doing. I held out my Sony A200 with its 100-300mm APO and said that I was checking out my new Stinger Missle System. He chuckled, said "have a nice day", and drove off. Texans are just more hospitible and not prone to be pushy like folks with badges elsewhere. Just don't come here for the scenery.

Helicopterfriend

While on vacation in Kansas, I was on what looked like a deserted road that was not posted as belonging to anyone. After shooting pictures for awhile, a white SUV with amber light came driving up and a lady exited the vehicle. I saw her DHS badge and asked her if there was a problem. She stated, "We prefer to not have people take pictures from OUR road and would like you to use the municipal road instead." I advised her there were no signs and she stated, she knows it and has asked that it be posted. She told me to go up to the road, turn left and go about 500 feet, turn around and I would probably get some good shots.

Ztex

Texans are just more hospitible and not prone to be pushy like folks with badges elsewhere

Sometimes....but not always...grrrr

http://www.airport-data.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1144#1144

Tigherland

This is my take on this being a retired Law Enforcement Officer. First, this will happen, be cool. When this does happen, its nothing wrong to ask to see some other ID from them to know who you are dealing with. I have an ID badge aswell that is part of my Photography Business, so these can be made up anywhere.

Ask them of a real ID if the Department that there're repersenting is not what they should look like. Maybe you will piss them off, but not if you are trying to get a point across to them that you are just as concern for the wrong people at airports too. Try to make them understand that you are just there for a hobby and nothing else. Don't try to overwhelm them with your likes and dis-likes. They are doing a job thats all. But try to keep things focused and to the point, don't try to offer any information unless they ask. Why, because then you will have to explain that.

--Example, its like an animal jumps in your path while driving and makes you mad and you make a comment like I could kill that deer for doing that. Well its not that you are really going to run in the woods and kill that deer for making you scared. But they here the word kill and block out everything else from there, so now you are left to explain why you want to kill the deer. Thats what I mean, those comments.

--Try to refain from using action related words like, I would do anything to get a picture of that fighter plane, keep it simple. Because they may now think that you are willing to climb a fence and get a shot at all cost. Once again those words.

Now if they ask you to leave and you don't then that comes an issue of it's own. Law Enforcement now in these areas have no half way point or a grey area. Its either On or Off, its either black or white. Everyone now is treated as a threat unless proven other wise. In Law Enforcement we had a saying, In God we Trust, everyone else gets searched.

--Now when questions are being answered and you feel at any point that they are going a different direction, just say I don't feel comfortable talking about my girlfriend or so and so. They have nothing to do with why I'm here. I am just enjoying the day thats all. And leave out ANYONE who is not there in the first place. Have in your mind what to say before you get there and get caught off guard. That way it doesn't look like you are fishing for answers.

Now you can also takes notes for yourself, if it becomes a problem, ask to see their supervisor. Let them know that you are not a treat, but a USA citizen who enjoys aircraft thats all.

Please guys, try to reframe from taking pics of US Militaty unless you have been giving the green light to do so. You can piss off alot of people and end up spending a whole day wasting time talking to these guys about why it is you like aircrafts so much.

Don't try to get in a wits of sorts with them, most of these guys have had little college but they are acting on instint of having backup if they need it so you will not win. Be nice and to the point without being and asshole.

I know of all this because I have had to face with people like this while on the job and while I was the photographer. Just be smart about it thats all.

I know during all this. it kind of makes you feel that you are on the other side being a criminal. But as of right now we still have rights to freedom and freedom to love and take pictures of aircraft.

DTW1977

Hey Dan, it's Mike, Tim J's old buddy.

I mentioned to you at TOM that I had something similar happen at MCO. My car was parked in a business park north of the airport.

Two guys walk out looking like assembly line workers and flashed the DHS badges. The unmarked building at the end of the street is supposedly DHS - or maybe it's an auto parts supplier. They asked the same lame questions and said that I could not take photos of their building. blah blah blah

FloridaMetal

Hey Mike,

I didn't know you came on this site? You post any of your pictures from Thunder yet?

I still don't know where that building is you are referring to by MCO - but I will be sure to avoid it. You get caught with a camera anywhere around MCO and you are sure to get questioned - I am not naming names but one of the people who is responsible a lot of the strictness to photography there got a nice promotion recently so it won't get any better in the near future.

Even though I work operations at MCO, I am still afraid to take pictures when I am off duty anywhere near MCO property - so I usually go to a nearby Starbucks or park to get photos.

The incident at TPA was rare - that was the only time I was ever bothered - and those guys never asked me to leave - they really couldn't, it was at a public park next to TPA, and yeah it was just about 4 days after the DTW underwear bomber incident.

I have been at that park or at TPA probably a good 20 times since, and haven't been bothered since. I go there while my girlfriend is at work when I am visiting her on my days off which are crappy now (Tuesday and Wednesday). I haven't been bothered since. In fact I will be there today. One of my TPA spotting buddies gave me a number to contact at TPA operations when I spot on the garage roof and the lady is really nice when I call her and she always tells me how nice it is to see people taking an interest in aviation.

TPA and MCO are like South and North Korea when it comes to spotting, there is that much of a difference - TPA is very spotter friendly. I see cops all the time when I spot by TPA and they never chased me away. The only problem is TPA doesn't have much variety, it is "Southwest, Southwest, Delta, Southwest, Southwest, US Airways, Southwest". Where at MCO you get a lot of widebodies. However, the backdrops at TPA are more spectacular from the garage roof - the Bay, Courtney Campbell Causeway and Clearwater to the west and Downtown and Bucs stadium to the east, I even got the Busch Gardens Roller coasters in the distance in pictures.